« Church Advertising | Main | October 2004 General Conference Report: Day One »
Today's controversial topic of discussion...
It’s General Conference time again, and I’ll be doing my Conference report over the weekend, same as last time. (Of course, that was right at the beginning of this blog’s history, so most people probably missed it…if so, you can see the reports from each day here and here…)
For a pre-Conference topic of discussion, though—let’s focus on the apostleship for a second. During this conference, the Church will (presumably) be calling new apostles to take the place of the departed Elders Maxwell and Haight. More than a few Church members—including some in the LDS blogosphere—have suggested that the Church ‘should’—if not right now, then at a later date—call a female apostle to the Quorum of the Twelve. This is directly related to the idea that women ‘should’ have the priesthood, of course, but let’s focus on the apostleship question for now.
Let’s suppose for today’s hypothetical discussion that one of the new apostles called tomorrow is a woman—for example, let’s say…current General Relief Society President Bonnie D. Parkin.
What are the benefits of calling Sister Parkin to the apostleship, versus a boring and traditional male candidate? Does she benefit herself from the calling? Do the female members of the Church benefit from having a female apostle? Does the Church membership as a whole benefit? If so, in what way?
Being an apostle is a demanding position…although so is being the General Relief Society President, and I have no doubt that Sister Parkin could handle the responsibilities of either. Whether she could is not the question, though—but why she should... In what ways, if any, would Sister Parkin or any other woman be better in the role of apostle than any of the presumably many male candidates that could also equally handle the responsibilities? Are there specific church issues that need ‘a woman’s touch’ to be resolved adequately—something that no male apostle would be capable of doing? If you say that women should be ‘in the loop’, so to speak, for decision-making in the Church, doesn’t that imply that the decisions made by the male apostles are/would be flawed in some way without having female input? Would having one or more female apostles change any of the policy decisions made by the Church today? If no, then what difference does it make if women are involved or not? If yes, then doesn’t that mean there’s something inherently wrong with the current leaders’ ability to lead according to the Lord’s will (a whole other issue entirely…)?
I’m no expert on the specific day-to-day apostolic responsibilities (travel, speaking assignments, etc…), but the basic purpose of an apostle is to testify of Jesus Christ. Yet, in no way does one need the priesthood to testify of Christ—Sister Parkin does it every day already. Would her talks on gospel principles be somehow substantively different with her having “Member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles” in front of her name, rather than ‘just’ “General Relief Society President”? Are there women who would pay attention to a talk given by Apostle Parkin, but would ignore the same message given by a male apostle? Are there men who would listen more carefully to a talk given by a woman with ‘apostle’ in her title, but who would tune out any message by a woman speaker without it? If yes, doesn’t that speak of a more personal problem with those individuals rather than an inherent flaw in the Church organization?
Would having a female apostle benefit the women of the Church by providing a positive role model for them? If so, what’s keeping Sister Parkin from being a positive role model for them now? (Also, what’s the problem with women having male role models in terms of spirituality? Isn’t that what Christ is to all of us?)
Would having a female apostle give young women hope that they can ‘aspire’ to be an apostle themselves when they grow up (like having a female US president)? (Question: should one ‘aspire’ to be an apostle? Would someone who aspires to the apostleship be more or less suitable to be an apostle than someone who does not? Discuss…) This is different than aspiring to be ‘Christ-like’, of course, which is open to everyone…
I am not arguing that a woman should not be an apostle (or as an extension that women should not hold the priesthood) because that implies that not having female priesthood holders is somehow better than having them (I can think of no such reason…) However, by the same token, saying a woman should be an apostle or that women should have the priesthood implies that that situation would be better in some substantive way for the members of the Church, and I can think of no such reason here either.
I honestly don’t care if women receive the priesthood in the future and/or there’s a female apostle someday—let things come how they may. My wife would be a fine and worthy priesthood holder if the opportunity arose—but in no way does she need the priesthood to fulfill any part of the plan of salvation, or to testify of Christ, or to teach our children, or to serve others in her calling as ward RS president. This whole ‘women-and-the-priesthood’ thing seems sometimes to be less about bringing actual benefits to women Church-wide, and more about an inherent distrust of male leaders—the attitude that in no way can a male Church leader handle anything related to women adequately--only a female leader can do it ‘right’. This is no different (and wrong) than a black, Hispanic, or Asian member refusing to listen to a Church leader because he’s white (or a young person not listening to a Church leader because he’s over 90 years old)--thus ‘doesn’t understand’ or is ‘out of touch with my issues’. It doesn’t matter to me if the apostle speaking to me during General Conference happens to be black, Hispanic, Asian…or female—and it should be the same the other way around, too. The Lord calls whom He will call and ‘whether by His voice or the voice of His servants it is the same”…
October 1, 2004 in LDS Church News | Permalink
TrackBack
TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/1188928
Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Today's controversial topic of discussion...:
Comments
Whoa... I hadn't observed or read that kind of a possibility anywhere. Don't you have to already have Melchizedek priesthood to be called to the apostleship? Maybe I'm mistaken on that though I don't know of any exceptions.
This probably isn't really allowed but I was kind of rooting for a non-Caucasian to be called to the apostleship. People are talking about how the next Supreme Court judge was going to be hispanic and I was thinking the same thing might happen with the apostleship. But who knows?
Whatever happens, I'll most assuredly be sustaining the new leadership.
Posted by: danithew | Oct 1, 2004 2:14:56 PM
Oh, no...this isn't a serious possibility (that I know of...), only that people have been talking about it like it should be done 'as soon as possible...and why not right now?'
Of course any rise of a woman to the apostleship would have to be preceded by women being ordained to the Melchizedek priesthood, you're right--the two things are interconnected.
Which part 'isn't really allowed'--having a non-Caucasian apostle, or 'rooting' for there to be one? I don't know why the first wouldn't be allowed (and will happen eventually...), and I think the second is okay, too...
Posted by: The Baron | Oct 1, 2004 4:16:20 PM
Oh, I meant it might be wrong to root for affirmative action in the Quorum of the Twelve. :)
My thought is that the apostleship is a very sacred thing and maybe I should just keep my thoughts on the matter to myself and support the Presidency and First Quorum of the Twelve in whatever they do, without throwing out random opinionson the matter.
Posted by: danithew | Oct 1, 2004 4:39:51 PM
Baron, as always, interesting observations. The aspiration question is funny. That was something that every mission deals with, elders aspiring to be DL's, ZL's, and AP. I have a problem with those who aspire to a position of "power" within the Church (included would be those who aspire to the apostleship), but I personally have no problem aspiring to be Gospel Doctrine teacher. Anyone else feel similarly?
As far as women holding the priesthood and apostleship...whatever. I'm like you, let things come how they may. If it happens, great. If not, great. I think God knows what he's doing.
Posted by: Rusty | Oct 2, 2004 8:01:19 AM
While I don't feel that I know any more than you about when/if women in the preisthood thing might/should happen, I do disagree with this:
"This whole ‘women-and-the-priesthood’ thing seems sometimes to be less about bringing actual benefits to women Church-wide, and more about an inherent distrust of male leaders"
First, I think there is a legitimate reason to distrust male leadership, not within the church necessarily, but in general, historically, male leadership has not done enough to protect women and the things that matter to women.
The thing I think men like you fail to do, truely is to put yourself into the shoes of those you so loudly proclaim are not disadvantaged by your leadership. Have you ever closed your eyes, tried to imagine a world run by women. Women control the money, women have the power, women are placed in a position of authority over you. Really try to imagine it. Go further and apply a universal "she" to everything in your life. Go furter and imagine the weight of history reversed.
It's hard to do, but a worthy excercise I think, to understand why many women have issues with male authority.
Posted by: Lisa | Oct 4, 2004 11:57:53 PM
Well, you'll get no argument from me that "in general" male leaders have traditionally not treated women properly, but--as in most things--things being true 'in general' is not the same as being true 'universally'.
Many of the objections to the top leadership in the Church being all-male seem to be (and this may be just my perception) simply because...they are all-male--without any specific complaints about how they do things. If any woman has issues with specific things that your all-male stake presidency/high council or the all-male Quorum of the Twelve does in regards to women, then those should be discussed specifically. But saying women 'should' or 'must' have a place in all leadership organizations simply because there aren't any right now implies that you consider it impossible for any group of men--no matter who they are--to treat women and women's issues properly...and that is most certainly not true. There are many men who care deeply about women and the issues they face, and the fact that other men do not (even if the second group happened to be the majority) does not make the first group non-existent.
I can imagine an alternate universe where women are the majority of the ruling class, and I can imagine there being numerous instances where the men felt invisible and that their voices were not being heard. Yet, I would not say that it was impossible for any female leader to adequately address the needs of men because that implies that the gulf between men and women is vast and is impossible to be breached, which I think is overstating things at best. The women leaders of that universe who naturally pay attention to male needs may be in the minority, and many others will still need some encouragement and reminding from time to time that men exist, yet it is still possible for both sides to coexist peacefully and productively without requiring that a man be added to any council or group in order to do so.
I would ask this question: If you (meaning any woman) have a distrust of male leadership, is it because they have shown specifically through their actions and attitudes that they don't respect women, or is it simply because they are male? I know very well that there are women who have many reasonable and well-founded complaints about how they are treated, but I also have no doubt that there are many women in the second group as well--who 'start' with the distrust before any evidence has been shown. Being naturally distrustful of a male leader because you've heard other male leaders elsewhere haven't treated women properly is called 'prejudice' and is no different than someone who's black being natually distrustful of a white leader (or vice versa) simply because of their race, not because of something specific that that person has done. I don't deny that if the positions were reversed there would be many men who would be naturally prejudiced against all female leaders, but that's not really the point... If one day I had a female bishopric in my ward, or if one or all of the apostles were female, I would still be called upon to respect their authority, without automatically saying they were incapable of doing this or that, or caring for me as a man, simply because they are of a different gender--no different than if I had a black or Hispanic bishop. (I, in fact, have a Chinese bishop right now...)
Posted by: The Baron | Oct 5, 2004 8:57:42 AM
"implies that you consider it impossible for any group of men--no matter who they are--to treat women and women's issues properly...and that is most certainly not true."
I agree with you in theory, in a bright happy world gender, race, whatever wouldn't matter. However, pragmatically I totally disagree with you. It is true that the vast majority of men, everywhere, always, do not do enough to protect/nurture women's needs. This also applies (sadly but often) in our church.
Now this isn't because men hate women, it isn't even sexism really, it's just human frailty at work.
It would not be *impossible* for men to care enough about women's issues and women's needs, it is however highly improbable, simply based on human nature and the historical and present state of things.
The thing is, we're only human, we only have enough capacity to care/learn/promote a few specialized things in our lives. We can't focus on every thing.
Most black people will naturally focus on things that concern black people. A white person often has little knowledge about these very important things, not because they're racist scum bags, but because they are busy with other things and are usually very little affected by race issues. Many white people often feel these issues ARE unimportant, because they do not feel the effects, and our capacity for creative empathy isn't always up to prime.
So the vast majority of the time the people affected by the decision of leadership, any group, are generally the best equipped to provide the best leadership for that group. Because it matters to them, because it affects them, because it is a priority for them.
Most men do not make women's unique needs a priority not because they're bad people, they don't make women's needs a priorty because they have other priorities, man priorities.
I can't think of a single system in which one group rules over another and succeeds in being as sensitive/successful in the issues concerning those whom they rule as those being ruled would be if they led themselves. Feel free to show me I'm wrong.
Posted by: Lisa | Oct 6, 2004 2:15:31 PM
Interesting Blog
The Baron wrote:
"if women are involved or not? If yes, then doesn’t that mean there’s something inherently wrong with the current leaders’ ability to lead according to the Lord’s will (a whole other issue entirely…)?"
"I am not arguing that a woman should not be an apostle (or as an extension that women should not hold the priesthood) because that implies that not having female priesthood holders is somehow better than having them (I can think of no such reason…) However, by the same token, saying a woman should be an apostle or that women should have the priesthood implies that that situation would be better in some substantive way for the members of the Church, and I can think of no such reason here either."
"It doesn’t matter to me if the apostle speaking to me during General Conference happens to be black, Hispanic, Asian…or female—and it should be the same the other way around, too."
Sounds like you are enjoying your cake.
.. I say I am in charge of you. If you were in charge of me, you probably would not do any better of a job so were just going to leave me in charge of you....
I know you now feel better with me being in charge.
I found your arguments and logic on this one topic very circular and self serving.
Posted by: david | Feb 15, 2006 5:27:00 AM
You'd better explain...
I (myself) am not 'in charge' of anything. No one listens to what I say any more or less because I happen to be a priesthood holder.
If you have two people, A and B, where A is the leader. Some people want B to be the leader. That's a fair opinion, but isn't the burden of proof on THEM to explain why? What specifically is A doing that they don't like? What would B do differently that would be an improvement over A leading? Are A and B supposed to swap positions just for the sake of 'change'? Why SHOULD we vote Democrats into power, instead of Republicans, for example? If both parties do exactly the same thing when leading, then it doesn't really matter, does it?
My position is: I want to hear specific reasons why the current hierarchal structure in the Church is bad, and not "just because..."
Posted by: The Baron | Feb 15, 2006 8:38:32 AM